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I added a source to the gender and personal life section of James Barry's wiki page stating that many consider James to be a Trans man/transmasculine figure nowadays but it was taken down not long after. I'd be open to discussing it if necessary. Thatstoic (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, I note that there have been multiple discussions concerning Barry's gender identity. Editors engaging in this discussion should at least peruse what has already been written, which includes:
... self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.[1] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources.
I could not find the author of the blog, Mily Mumford, in Wikidata. I could only find scant mention in "Mily+Mumford" Google Scholar. I do not think that Mumford can be considered an established subject-matter expert.
That said, I think that the article deserves a neutral, balanced, and duly weighted discussion of Barry's gender identity. It is clear that regardless of gender identity, British military & medical societies only permitted men to hold positions among their ranks. Barry certainly could not have been a British Army surgeon should Barry's gender status at birth had been known.
I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.
I'm not claiming that James was transgender, I'm merely including the fact that many people, whether they be historians or not, see him that way. The reason I included that article was because it included one such historian that believes that James was trans. I merely used that article because I was too lazy and thought that that would be enough to fix my previous error, but I suppose I should include articles made by the actual historian to hopefully put this issue to bed? Thatstoic (talk) 18:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have outlined the way forward. For a balanced, and duly weighted discussion, we need to provide both
the viewpoint that Barry was transgender
the viewpoint that Barry passed as a man so as to be a British Army surgeon, & subsequently may have wanted to be buried without physical examination so as to protect those who knew about Barry's gender but were silent.
The lack of any mention of the word "transgender" in the article body seems a little odd to me. I updated this section title to "Gender identity discussion" to more accurately reflect the topic under discussion. – notwally (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's super weird to me that there's no mention of "transgender" in the article too. I'll see if I can track down any helpful sources in a few days here. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC) Also, nice to see you again, Notwally![reply]
I believe I can be of service, I included that article because it listed one historian that believes that James was trans, but I can list some others if you'd like. Thatstoic (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is some text in the section "Gender and personal life" that reads "Their closeness led to rumours and ultimately an accusation briefly appearing on a bridge post in Cape Town on 1 June 1824 saying that the writer had 'detected Lord Charles buggering Dr Barry', which led to a court trial and investigation, as homosexuality was at that time illegal."
Was this "accusation" some graffiti or a paper pasted to a bridge post? The accusation is referenced but not the assertion that this led to a "court trial and investigation." Who was put on trial? Who conducted the investigation? The implication is that it would have been either Lord Somerset or Dr. Barry or both. On the evidence of an anonymous bit of slander on a "bridge post"? What was the outcome of the trial? How would the scandal of this "court trial and investigation" not have significantly affected both the lord and the surgeon? If this trial actually took place, we need more of an account of it in the article. There is nothing about such an accusation or trial in the article on Lord Charles Somerset, which is pretty sparse and does not mention Dr. Barry or any sort of scandal at all. Pascalulu88 (talk) 23:16, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is a pretty in-depth substack on the case [1], which although not an appropriate source in of itself does have a list of references. There are also a couple of contemporaneous Hansard entries from 1826[2] and 1827[3] on the aftermath, but it would probably take someone with more time to spare to dig further into details! It is odd that it is not in Somerset's article, and it probably should be. Daff22 (talk) 08:11, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply and the links. The irony in connection with Dr. Barry is that, in view of Dr. Barry's factory issued equipment, there might have been no actual sodomy at all. Pascalulu88 (talk) 15:43, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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